Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Case Created Last volunteer edit Last modified
Title Status User Time User Time User Time
Talk:Sampling (music) Needs Attention Popcornduff (t) 36 days, 12 hours MrClog (t) 16 days, 11 hours MrClog (t) 16 days, 11 hours
Talk:Reverse racism In Progress Sangdeboeuf (t) 29 days, 17 hours Robert McClenon (t) 3 days, 6 hours Scoundr3l (t) 1 days, 3 hours
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Contents

Current disputes[edit]

Talk:Sampling (music)[edit]

Pictogram voting wait red.png – Needs attention.
Filed by Popcornduff on 11:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

I and another editor, Liftarn, disagree over whether to include a paragraph in the article Sampling (music) in the section " Legal and ethical issues". The paragraph summarises a case of plagiarism in a particular song by Timbaland.

We seem to agree that the section should not merely list every case of plagiarism in sampling history. Instead, cases should only be included if they've had a notable impact on legal and ethical issues in sampling. We disagree about whether the sources demonstrate this.

Sergecross73 responded to a request for comment and felt the paragraph should not be included. The discussion has lasted over a month, with no consensus in sight.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Placed a request for further opinions on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums 11 days ago. So far, only Sergecross73 has responded.

How do you think we can help?

We need some more experienced editors to review the sources and help reach a consensus about whether they justify the content.

Summary of dispute by Liftarn[edit]

The Timbaland plagiarism controversy gives a description of the case in question. It is an interesting example since Timbaland refereed to what he did as "sampling" when what he did was mute the bassline, add some drums and song on top of an existing track and passed it off as his own work. This new and novel definition of what sampling is should be enough for the case to be included, but it has also have a lasting impact on what is called "collective forensic musicology" and it is used in books about music education. // Liftarn (talk) 13:32, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Sergecross73[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Here’s my take on it, as the only person who looked into the dispute from the WikiProject notification. “Sampling” is a widely used technique in modern music. As is frequently an issue on Wikipedia, is “example bloat” - everyone always wants to add their preferred example to illustrate an idea. Because there are just thousands upon thousands of examples of sampling in music, Popcornduff requested that he prove his specific example regarding Timbaland was particularly noteworthy. He’s provided a couple relatively weak sources noting Timbalands sample usage, but no particular commentary on its importance or impact. He wants to make grand claims of importance, but popcornduff and I have pointed out that none of his sources back that claim. He insists they do. We’ve asked him to outline the exact content he’d add, and the exact content from the source he felt backed the assertions. He has so far refused to do so, stating he feels he has already proven his point (even though he’s 0 for 2 on convincing anyone.) Sergecross73 msg me 13:22, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

List of sources from Liftarn[edit]

Wow... There is a lot of them...

That Timbaland plagiarised Sunni's track:

  • Zeilinger, Martin J. (2013). "Chiptuning Intellectual Property: Digital Culture Between Creative Commons and Moral Economy". Journal of the International Association for the study of Popular Music. 3 (1).
  • Cuepoint: Was Timbaland’s Skillful Sampling a Cultural Crime?
  • "Chris Abbott: Doin' it for themselves: what's going on in Timbaland?". C64audio.com. 2007-01-18. Archived from the original on 2009-08-15. Retrieved 2010-02-28.

That he refereed to it as sampling:

That is had a lasting impact:

  • Tobias, Evan (1 sep. 2014). Promising Practices in 21st Century Music Teacher Education. Oxford University Press. p. 207. ISBN 9780199384754. Check date values in: |date= (help)

Talk:Sampling (music) discussion[edit]

  •  Note to participants: All participants have been informed of this dispute resolution request via their talkpage by me. Discussion will start only after all involved editors have given a summary of the dispute. MrClog (talk) 12:11, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
  •  Volunteer note: I hereby open this dispute resolution. Please note that this resolution is meant to find a compromise that you all can agree on, and that this resolution is non-binding (but it is very much requested that users do follow the agreed-to decision). @Liftarn: It seems like a good first step to me that you list all sources that support your side of the story under "List of sources from Liftarn". MrClog (talk) 15:03, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
  •  Volunteer note: @Liftarn: If possible, could you share the specific quote in which Evan Tobias says that it had a lasting impact, that would be great. Note that unless Tobias explicitly states that Timbaland plagiarising and calling it sampling had this lasting impact, it could be considered WP:SYNTH. MrClog (talk) 17:20, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, you’ve pretty much experienced one full cycle of the looping argument we’ve had going on with Liftarn now. He’ll list off a few sources, but refuse to explain what in the source specifically verifies the claim. And while of course off-line sources are generally acceptable, his refusal to supply or understand the issue here - that we need a source that explains impact specifically - makes me rather wary to be persuaded by a source I can’t verify the contents of personally. Sergecross73 msg me 21:38, 16 March 2019 (UTC)*{{
  •  Volunteer note: @Sergecross73: @Liftarn: @Popcornduff: I have managed to find an online version of the book Liftarn uses as source, and the closest to the "lasting impact" claim I could find was this:

    The phenomenon surfaced throughout the Internet and eventually in mainstream media sources across the world, forcing Timbaland to address the issue in interviews. Even after the case was officially closed in 2007 (according to a statement by the original composer of “Acidjazzed Evening”), the discourse continued through text-based comments and video responses posted on YouTube or related sites, a process that continues years later. Note: This is part of a copyrighted work of Evan Tobias, shared under the fair use doctrine of United States copyright law.

    From my perspective, this doesn't prove that there was this lasting impact, therefore making it WP:SYNTH. Thoughts (especially from Liftarn)? Also, saying that the fact that it is used as an example in the book proves it had this impact is also SYNTH. --MrClog (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, you citing SYNTH runs parallel with our claims of “not being supported by source” - I think we’re all arguing the same thing against Liftarn here. It’s been days here, and had been going for days at the talk page prior, and there’s still no actually excerpts from reliable sources. I’m getting the vibe Liftarn doesn’t have anything specific prose in a source to verify his claim, or he would have presented it by now... Sergecross73 msg me 23:20, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Please explain how WP:SYNTH is applicable here as there is no synthesis. FYI, there is en entire section of the book with the title "Timbaland steals music? A case of collective forensic musicology". // Liftarn (talk) 07:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

@Liftarn: Let's use the ABC structure: Timbaland said his plagariasm was sampling ("A") and this is used in a book as example ("B"). You argued that it therefore had a lasting impact ("therefore C"), but this violates WP:SYNTH, which states:

"A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.

I have read the part on Timbaland in the book and nowhere does it seem to say and/or explain that the example had a lasting impact. MrClog (talk) 07:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
That is incorrect. A and B are not connected, thus it's no synthesis. The lasting impact is implied with the phrase "continues years later". // Liftarn (talk) 10:41, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
@Liftarn: Timbaland justified plagariasm with sampling ("A"), this has been discussed for years ("B"), therefore it had a lasting impact ("therefore C"). The source doesn't argue that C is true. THe fact that the case has been discussed for many years doesn't neceessarily prove it had a lasting impact. You should bring WP:RS that say that it had a "lasting impact", and saying that the fact it has been discussed for many years proofs this impact is WP:SYNTH. MrClog (talk) 12:27, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
No, it has been discussed for years, thus is had a lasting impact. "A" does not enter into it. // Liftarn (talk) 12:05, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
@Liftarn: Certain murder cases have been discussed for years, yet they had no lasting impact on the legal/ethical aspect of murder. "Discussed for years" doesn't necessarily mean "lasting impact". MrClog (talk) 12:26, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Thank you. That is finally a valid argument instead of the straw man. It certainly changed the interpretation of the Berne convention and US law. See International Copyright Law: U.S. and E.U. Perspectives: Text and Cases (p. 198-204). Also see Making and Unmaking Intellectual Property: Creative Production in Legal and Cultural Perspective (chapter 13). // Liftarn (talk) 07:26, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
If you can’t find a source that directly states it, then it’s not a valid addition according to Wikipedia policy. It’s original research to equate “lots of mentions” to “lasting impact”. If you can’t pull an excerpt from a source that directly verified your addition, it’s either WP:SYNTH or a source verification error. Sergecross73 msg me 20:22, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Oh, like "The decision is notable for its sweeping conclusion as to what constitutes a U.S. work under § 411."[1] // Liftarn (talk) 07:52, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
That seems like a good source that supports your claim to me. @Sergecross73: @Popcornduff: What do you think? MrClog (talk) 08:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't buy it. The source, if I'm reading it correctly, states that in this case the court decided the work in question could be considered a US work. The source then gives an example of another, later case, when a different court reached the opposite conclusion. I think the "sweeping conclusion" here means that the court's conclusion about which works fall under US copyright was "sweeping" (ie included a lot of different works), not that it had a sweeping effect. Popcornduff (talk) 10:35, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Your claim seems to be unsupported by the source as it says "Given the ramifications of the ruling in Kernel, the case may well go up on appeal in the U.S. Court of Appeals, Eleventh Circuit.". Another article says "As a result of this decision, foreign authors face increased uncertainty as to whether the provisions of the Berne Convention will serve to exempt them from the copyright registration requirements applicable to owners of U.S. works."[2] and "the court’s decision adds yet another reason to the long list of reasons why foreign authors should consider timely registration of their works with the U.S. Copyright Office, despite the exemptions provided by the Berne Convention."[3] // Liftarn (talk) 12:38, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
That 1) is all speculative, with no examples of how it has changed anything and 2) describes US copyright law generally, n:ot sampling specifically. This really isn't a great or necessary example of an ethical and legal issue in sampling. Popcornduff (talk) 12:43, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
Liftarn, what do you think about Popcornduff's comment? MrClog (talk) 08:48, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
He is entitled to his opinion, but I think the facts speak for themselves. // Liftarn (talk) 09:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Uhhhh it really feels like Popcornduff’s statement would require a bit more of a rebuttal from you here if you’re deciding to stick to your guns on this. Usually when someone says “there’s no evidence”, you...counter it with evidence...? Sergecross73 msg me 17:42, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
Sergecross, what do you think of Lifturn's newest sources? Popcornduff (talk) 00:56, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
He didn't say there isn't an evidence (as there is). He just don't like it. Facts should matter, not personal taste. Kernel Records Oy v. Mosley have indeed (as the sources say) had a major impact on how internationally copyright law is interpreted in the US. While the impact is on anything published online it stems from a case of sampling. // Liftarn (talk) 08:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
But time and time again, you cant (or aren’t) explaining how. You say “no you’re wrong” and “look at the source” but you never really explain your understanding of what the source says other than a basic “the source says so”. It’s clear you’re adamantly arguing something...but it continually feels like you yourself don’t even understand the crux of your own argument. Sergecross73 msg me 01:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
OK, I'll try to explain it in a simpler way. Don't hesitate to ask if something is unclear. Timbaland found a track by Glenn Rune Gallefoss. He muted the bassline, added drums and song. He then published it as his own work (for simplicities sake we can leave out the ethical aspects of that). This he (and several media articles) refereed to as sampling. OK, so this is a case of sampling according to himself and several sources. You with me? It later went to court as Kernel Records Oy v. Mosley. So we have a court case about sampling. In the case it was ruled that if you published something on a diskette in Australia it was a US work. This reversed the precedence from Moberg v. 33T LLC. Possibly as a revenge for Dow Jones & Co Inc v Gutnick. Anyway, as the sources say this new way to interpret the jurisdiction of works published digitally is a major game changer. // Liftarn (talk) 08:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
It's the final part we're questioning: "a major game changer". I don't see how the sources you have provided demonstrates how the game has changed, for the reasons I gave above. Can you address those concerns?Popcornduff (talk) 09:01, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I'm thinking about this some more, because I'm trying to figure out how we'd incorporate what you're saying here into the article, if we were to do it. I actually have no idea, based on your summary above, what the outcome for Timbaland was. I tried reading the Timbaland plagiarism controversy article, but it's not clear there either, and it's not an easy article to read generally. I tried rereading the source mentioning the "sweeping changes" we discussed before, but it seems to have been moved behind a paywall - perhaps something has changed on my end?
As best as I can manage right now, the relevant parts of what you're arguing should actually amount to something like this (very different from what you've added to the Sampling (music) article so far):
In 2011, the US producer Timbaland won a copyright infringement case after sampling a composition owned by the Finnish record label Kernel Records without permission. Under US copyright law, a work must first be registered with the US copyright office to become the subject of a copyright infringement lawsuit. The court held that by being published online, the composition had been simultaneously published every country with internet service, including the US. The work therefore satisfied the definition of a US work, and as it had not been registered with the US copyright office it could be sampled without permission.
Does that look reasonable to you?
But please note that I would not advocate to include this in the article, as it lacks the critical element: what makes this different from any of the thousands of other plagiarism and sampling disputes, why is this more important, what lasting impact has this had? I can't find anything in the sources we can use to add to the text I wrote above. Popcornduff (talk) 09:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
In short the case caused a fundamental shift in how online publication and international copyrights work. Basically the court threw out the Berne convention. That is no small thing. // Liftarn (talk) 10:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
And yet the same source also says that in another, later case, a different court reached the opposite conclusion, indicating that it might have had no lasting impact. The sources you're relying on now also phrase everything in terms of general copyright law, rather than giving specific indication about how this affects sampling.
We're getting lost in the swamp here. Stand back and look at the big picture. This section should summarise major legal and ethical arguments in sampling, ones that really changed things and are important to sampling. Like Sergecross said a thousand years ago, we can't throw in every case. We have to figure out which ones are a big deal and which ones aren't. This one isn't a big deal. Popcornduff (talk) 10:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
I think you are referring to Moberg v. 33T LLC that was in 2009 and before Kernel Records Oy v. Mosley (2011).[4] "On October 6, the United States Court for the District of Delaware ruled in a case of first impression that a photograph posted to the Internet from a foreign server is not a “United States work” within the meaning of section 411 of the Copyright Act, and thus need not be registered in the U.S. in order to bring suit for infringement.". The case Moberg v. 33T LLC did not change anything as it just preserved the status quo. However Kernel Records Oy v. Mosley reversed that and it's a big deal. // Liftarn (talk) 10:59, 28 March 2019 (UTC
You're right, I misread the source. The case you're talking about did indeed come after the other, not before. Sorry about that.
... But in my view it still doesn't provide any evidence of any lasting impact. And that's what I've been asking for since day one. Popcornduff (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

────────── This has dragged on for almost two months, now, so here are (hopefully) my final thoughts on this matter:

Like Sergecross said, there are countless examples of court cases and disputes over sampling we include in this section. But this isn't supposed to be an exhaustive list of such events. It's supposed to be a concise summary of major events that have shaped the use of sampling in music.

We have a few weak sources that describe the Timbaland incident, but nothing to show it has had any serious impact on anything. The source Liftarn is pushing now focuses mainly on the implications for copyright in general, with little discussion of what it means for sampling, and with no examples of anything having changed.

As you can probably guess, I would still prefer to exclude the Timbaland incident in this article. But in the interest of reaching some conclusion, if other editors would like to review these sources again, and feel they demonstrate reason to be included in this article despite my objections, then I'll live with that. Sergecross73? MrClog? Any thoughts? Popcornduff (talk) 10:35, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I’m pretty much in the same spot as you. As I’ve said since the beginning, I could probably be swayed if Liftarn proposed specific prose, a specific source, and the specific excerpt of the source that backed it. But I still don’t think he’s managed to do that. (If I missed this in the massive wall of text above, feel free to re-add it down here, with the 3 parts I’m requesting. Sergecross73 msg me 18:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
As I've made the edit[5] there is some very specific text right there, but the main points I'm trying to get across is 1) Timbaland expanded the definition of sampling to also include taking someone else's work and pass it off as your own with just some minor changes. (This is the ethical aspect) The resulting court case reinterpreted US copyright law contra the Berne convention (this is the legal aspect). // Liftarn (talk) 11:38, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
The text you added doesn't make clear what relevance, if any, the case has. The quote from Timbaland is baffling, and the supposedly important part (the outcome of the lawsuit) isn't mentioned at all. I notice you haven't responded to my proposed text, above. Popcornduff (talk) 06:40, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
That would work with some tweaks. The text "after sampling a composition" is incorrect. Something more in line with reality would be "passing off somebody else's work as his own. Something he called sampling". Or "Apart from the lyrics the song was nearly identical to used a piece from 2000 for the Commodore 64." // Liftarn (talk) 10:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  •  Volunteer note: Due to holidays, I'll not be able to further be engaged with this dispute resolution. I'll change the case status to reflect this and to request other volunteers to take over. --MrClog (talk) 12:33, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Reverse racism[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Sangdeboeuf on 06:46, 22 March 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

Two-part issue, where another user and I are at loggerheads over (1) whether "reverse discrimination" is a legitimate alternative name for this article, to be placed in bold in the first sentence, and (2) whether the article shows systemic bias requiring use of the {{globalize}} template.

I've pointed out that "significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence of the first paragraph", and that multiple published sources treat "reverse discrimination" as a synonym of "reverse racism", i.e. a "significant alternative name" for the topic. Scoundr3l says this is too ambiguous, given that another article has Reverse discrimination as its title.

For the "Globalize" issue, I've pointed out that sources describing the topic focus on the U.S., and that the article should reflect these sources per Due and undue weight. I don't think one user's unproven hunch that the article is plagued by systemic bias is enough reason to indefinitely deface the article with a cleanup tag. Systemic bias is by definition not a question of this or that article being skewed; it's about the shared social and cultural characteristics of most editors and under-representing those topics for which reliable sources are not easily available (i.e. online) or available in English. Well, part of the answer to that is to seek out alternative sources. I've asked several times (1st) (2nd) (3rd) (4th) for published sources that describe non-U.S. viewpoints, but none have been provided. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I think I have exhausted the possibilities of talk page discussion given that my repeated requests for information have been largely ignored. Scoundr3l has twice listed the dispute at WP:3O, but no one decided to take up the issue, and the listing was removed. How do you think we can help? I think moderation from an experienced user would help all parties articulate their concerns more clearly in order to arrive at a solution based on Wikipedia's core content policies.

Summary of dispute by Scoundr3l[edit]

(1) Regarding the alt title: "Reverse discrimination" is the subject of another article. As far as anyone can tell, that article covers the only definition of the term. I asked for clarification on the scope of the article. Sangdeboeuf replied with the opinion that the two terms have similar, but different scopes. I agreed. I attempted to remove the alt title and further define the article "reverse racism" to differentiate it from the "reverse discrimination" article. Those changes were reverted and Sangdeboeuf seems to have contradicted the previous opinion by now insisting they are the same thing. My position is that using it as an alt title on the "reverse racism" page is needlessly ambiguous, even if some sources do, because it's the same term covered by the other article. In the best interest of the readers, the articles should attempt to disambiguate them.

Note: there is an ongoing merge proposal for the two articles, which we've both participated in, as well as a merge suggestion that was closed as "Keep".

(2) Regarding the globalize tag: This was added by me because I feel that that lede of the article almost exclusively discusses US politics, despite the article having relevant subsections for the US and abroad. I think the lede should summarize the worldview, as much as possible, and the US can be discussed in detail in its relevant subsection. I made that clear in my discussion and I offered open-ended suggestions for how we could begin improvements. Sangdeboeuf's response has been nothing short of hostile. They've made no attempt to understand or engage in the issue, answer simple questions, or participate. Their stance has been "I disagree", which I can't be expected to account for, but I expect any reasonable editor could see a good faith effort to begin working on improvements. After one of the many removals of the template without action or engagement, a 3rd party editor re-added the tag and Sangdeboeuf still insists on removing it without discussion.

After it became evident that this was not a collaborative environment, I sought out a 3O twice. No responders. Participation in the article is low and probably hasn't been encouraged by stonewalling and ownership-like behavior. The only 3rd party participation so far was the re-addition of the globalize template.

Talk:Reverse racism discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
  • Volunteer Note - There has been discussion at the article talk page. The filing party has notified the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
  • @Robert McClenon: Would you be able to open this one up? MrClog (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer moderator[edit]

I will try to facilitate discussion. I have opinions on this subject, but will keep my personal opinions in check, because I have an even stronger opinion that Wikipedia needs to present the neutral point of view on issues where many people are not neutral. Please read the ground rules and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Civility is required everywhere in Wikipedia, and especially in contentious areas. Overly long posts do not help to resolve issues, although they make the poster feel better, so be concise. Discuss article content only, not contributors. The objective of this discussion is to improve the article.

Will each editor please state, in one or at most two paragraphs, what the issues are? I understand that there may be a suggestion to merge this article with reverse discrimination, but that should be outside the scope of this discussion, because there is a consensus-based procedure for merge discussions. Is there an issue about defining the scope of the topic and the article? If so, please state it concisely. If there are other content issues, please state them concisely. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:53, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

  • Yes, first and foremost there is an issue of scope. Presently, the article does not define what 'reverse racism' is. It begins immediately by contextualizing how the term is used in Affirmative Action debates, which is inadequate, if not incorrect, as a definition. The source themselves state that the concept dates back to the Reconstruction era and it is often used outside of those contexts, such as bloc voting discussions. I offered instead to define it as situations where "typically advantaged or majority racial groups are denied advantages or opportunities given to minority or disadvantaged groups." This definition is modeled after the one in Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society and similar (but distinct) from the definition used at reverse discrimination. That will allow us to set the scope of the two articles apart and discuss the broader subject outside of the American Affirmative Action debate (though it can still be discussed with due weight). And finally, the alt title is unnecessary and confusing, probably owing to those scope issues. Scoundr3l (talk) 21:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I'll reiterate what I wrote above, minus the "globalize" issue, since that discussion was closed by an uninvolved user.

    The issue, as I see it, is that since multiple published sources treat the terms reverse discrimination and reverse racism as equivalent, both terms should be given in the lead section or paragraph per WP:OTHERNAMES, preferably in bold text. Whether a separate article with the title Reverse discrimination exists is irrelevant; anyone can create an article with any title. We should simply follow what sources say, and use hatnotes or a disambiguation page to deal with any ambiguity as needed.

    In terms of the article's scope, I think it's preferable to give context up front rather than just the literal meaning of the words reverse racism, precisely because it's a non-neutral term (à la white genocide or great replacement). The crucial points to cover are that (1) it's a concept used as a political strategy, and (2) it specifically refers to anti-white discrimination. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:35, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

  • The worldview of the article is still an issue. The globalize discussion that was closed was off-topic conversation about the inclusion of the tag, not really useful to anyone. As the issue was already in DRN, there's no value in re-opening it, but that doesn't mean the issue has disappeared or been resolved. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:43, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator[edit]

Editorial comment: Do not reply to the posts of other editors, and do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. The parties are here because they are presumably requesting facilitation because back-and-forth discussion merely restated the two sides.

Is there agreement that there is a scope issue? I am neutral, but I see a definition issue at the beginning, which is that the topic is reverse racism, but there is no initial definition of what is meant by racism in the first place. Do we need to start by defining racism? Please answer in one paragraph.

Can each party provide a one-paragraph (preferably two or three sentences) proposed lede paragraph? Provide this separately from the answer to the above.

There have been comments about a global view. I can see that the concept of reverse racism is likely to be different in different countries, the United States, the United Kingdom, continental Europe, India. Will each of the editors please comment in one paragraph about whether they think that the article needs to be expanded to be global? If yes, is it currently focused on the United States?

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:17, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors[edit]

  • A lot of sources take for granted that "reverse racism" is self explanatory, at least within the context they are discussing, so they don't bother to specifically define it. But it does need to be defined for our article. I don't think we necessarily need to define 'racism' in this article, but we should at least link to that article, if possible.

    My proposed lede:

    Reverse racism is a form of reverse discrimination in which typically advantaged or majority racial groups are denied advantages or opportunities given to minority or disadvantaged racial groups. The concept has been used to portray color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality, such as affirmative action, as a form of anti-white racism.

    If it's too wordy, we can cut down on some of the "or"s. I've also offered to include "concept" or "In political discourse," in the lede sentence, as part of our previous discussion.

    Regarding worldview, the article is presented as universal, but focused almost exclusively on the US. It relies too heavily on sources discussing American politics and makes little effort to present the term outside that context. By last estimate, 6 of the 7 sentences in the lede mentioned the US specifically, either in text or piped link. This is excessive considering it repeats a lot of what's already in the US subsection. Similar discussions have been brought up about India on the Reverse Discrimination talk page. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:59, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure there is any problem with the article's scope. Giving a simple definition of racism in the lead section would only confuse matters in my view, because (A) racism does not easily fit under a single definition, and (B) the topic is not a form of racism at all, according to the sources. This is explained in the second paragraph of the lead.

    I think the existing lead paragraph, Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is a concept often associated with conservative social movements that portrays affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality as a form of anti-white racism, whereby gains by racial minorities result in harms to the white majority, gives a workable definition of the topic and places it in the appropriate context. It could probably be broken into parts to avoid a run-on sentence, though.

    I think the article already represents a global worldview as represented by the existing sources. Most of the high-quality sources I've seen focus on the US, so that's where the article should also focus. I think any expansion needs to be justified with published sources (I haven't seen any sources that specifically discuss the concept of "reverse racism" in India). —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator[edit]

Hmmm. It appears that one editor is basically satisfied with the definition, the scope, and the globality, and the other editor thinks that the definition should be revised and the article should provide more information about the problem outside the United States. Are you (each of you) willing to compromise on the definitional statement? Are you (each of you) willing to compromise on including or not including other countries? Are there any other issues that need to be discussed and are not being discussed? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:55, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statements by editors[edit]

  • My last edit to the page, adding "whereby gains by racial minorities result in harms to the white majority", was an attempt to incorporate the other editor's concerns in defining the scope of the topic. I'm open to further compromise if it can be shown to be faithful to published sources. Ditto for including other countries. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 18:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Naturally willing to compromise, but I'd need details on the proposed compromise. I'd also ask Sangdeboeuf to stop editing the lede while it's under discussion as it's making it difficult to characterize what we're talking about and it's introducing more errors. The only thing that doesn't appear to be addressed is the alt title. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:09, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator[edit]

I don't see any editing of the lede since we started discussion. (If I did, I would fail this discussion, because the mediation rules state that no one shall edit the article while discussion is in progress, but it appears that the editors have read that.)

Since it appears that the editors are making some progress toward compromise, I will change the rules and encourage the editors to engage in back-and-forth discussion as to the wording of the lede sentence for four days or so.

Are there any other issues that the editors think need to be resolved? As to whether to tag the article, we already know that we do not want the article tagged. If it needs improvement, it should be improved here, rather than tagged as needing improvement.

Robert McClenon (talk) 23:16, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors[edit]

  • As stated, I'm satisfied with the contents of the current lead sentence, though happy to entertain other suggestions. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:13, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
  • this change was introduced since the discussion started. I'm genuinely curious which of the concerns it was meant to address as it doesn't add a definition, worldview, or address the alt title. It's just a tossing of the word salad. It's also factually inaccurate as it needlessly introduced "racial minority" and "white majority" which are not requisite to reverse racism (see: South Africa). We've engaged in a back and forth since mid February and come no closer to a compromise than when this began. If we could have resolved this by now, I'm sure we both would have. What we really need is a third opinion. It's also unclear what you mean by "tag" in regards to the alt title. Scoundr3l (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't add a definition". It describes the scope of the subject according to those who use the term. What other definition would you like to include? As to the majority/minority issue, you may have a point; what if we just said "white people"/"black people" instead? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:21, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator[edit]

I stated the ground rules on 28 March. They said not to edit the article. The lede sentence was tweaked on 29 March. How do you expect to arrive at a compromise if you are ignoring the mediation instructions?

I suggest the use of a Request for Comments. Will each side please state what their version of the lede sentence should be. Please also identify any other issues.

Fifth statements by editors[edit]

  • That was an oversight on my part that was nonetheless intended as a compromise edit. I even said as much under "Third statements by editors" above. However, if an RfC is recommended I'd be fine with that as well.

    I think the existing lead sentence is good but could be split into two, such as Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism. The concept is often associated with conservative social movements and perceptions that social and economic gains by black people in the U.S. and elsewhere cause disadvantages for white people.Sangdeboeuf (talk) 07:21, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

  • To reiterate the issues: (1) the current lede sentence is not a definition. It's inadequate to handle the most basic uses of the word, such as "To vote for a Negro only because he is a Negro would be reverse racism" -Jackie Robinson, New York Times, discussing bloc voting. Or "Accusations of 'reverse racism' haunt an American professor" -The Economist, discussing tweets by Sarah Jeong. The over-reliance on the wording of only a few sources (and ignoring others) has needlessly skewed the scope of the article in favor of one preferred context, at the expense of others. There's no reason to try to make the article fit into a definition if it doesn't fit. It's not the definition.

    My proposed lede:

    Reverse racism is a form of reverse discrimination in which typically advantaged or majority racial groups are denied advantages or opportunities given to minority or disadvantaged racial groups. The concept has been used to portray color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality, such as affirmative action, as a form of anti-white racism.

    This definition fits all appropriate uses of the term, including those used by the AA sources, and still provides context for how the term is used in Affirmative Action debates. Providing an adequate definition is not an issue of neutrality. The term means what it means and there are no "non-neutral" exceptions to NPOV.

    Second (2) is the alt title. The purpose of alt titles is to ensure coverage of all significant names for the article content, and vice versa. The subject of "reverse discrimination" is already covered. Using this alt title means we now have two articles about "reverse discrimination". As you said, there is a consensus-based procedure for merging articles. That proposal has already been rejected and it appears that it may be rejected again. This bypasses the process by disrupting the scope of another article. Alt title should be removed if and until consensus changes for a merger.

    RfC wouldn't be my first choice. After all, this is just a disagreement between two editors. I feel like it's already been protracted enough. But if nobody else is willing to offer their opinion here, it'll do. Thank you. Scoundr3l (talk) 18:03, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator[edit]

Okay. If the editing of the article after moderated discussion started was an innocent mistake, the editors can resume trying to talk to each other about a proposed lede that will be acceptable to both parties. I will observe and let there be back-and-forth. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:41, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors[edit]

I would refer to my latest comment where I propose a slightly modified lead paragraph. Otherwise I'm satisfied with the lead paragraph as it stands. Will entertain any alternative suggestions.

Meanwhile, what should we do about problematic edits like this one, which introduce questionable content into the lead section? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:35, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

  • With all due respect, we've both already stated our issues, our proposals, and our reasoning several times now and they don't appear to have changed much. If we could have resolved this with back-and-forth, we would have done it on the talk thread that began in February and we wouldn't need dispute resolution. Just for the sake of variety, I think we should hear what you think and then I'm sure we'll have better luck coming to an accord with some new information rather than just repeating this all over again. As for the new edit, it doesn't appear related to this conversation. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:03, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
    • @Scoundr3l: true, talk page discussion went nowhere, which is why I brought the issue to this more structured forum. Do you have nothing to add about my latest proposal? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:21, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
      • Sorry, with the threading this can be confusing but I was actually saying that I think we should hear from @Robert McClenon: or someone else. I appreciate the change in forum, but if it's still just you and me repeating ourselves, it isn't moving us forward. Your current proposal has all the same problems as when we began: it uses an inappropriate alt title, it doesn't define the term, and it's factually incorrect to the scope of the subject. Scoundr3l (talk) 19:21, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
        • Can you substantiate those claims? What do you suggest as a better lead sentence/paragraph? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 10:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
          • I've already substantiated it several times in my previous statements, and proposed a better lead. See previous statements. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:38, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
    • Since the last edit was not related to this discussion, as Scoundr3l says, I've removed the questionable material. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:33, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Seventh statement by moderator[edit]

This is getting troublesome, in that we keep seeming to have this resolved, and then it isn't quite finished. Let's try one more time. Will each editor, one more time, please provide their proposed wording of the lede sentence? If we can't get agreement, I will throw it to an RFC. If you don't want that, just agree to something.

By the way, I have requested that the page be semi-protected for between one and two more months due to repeated edits (and I haven't looked at whether they are plain vandalism, fancy vandalism, or socks) by unregistered editors that have to be reverted. Some of it is POV vandalism.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Seventh statements by editors[edit]

  • My proposed lead sentence is Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism, to be followed immediately by The concept is often associated with conservative social movements and the belief that social and economic gains by black people in the U.S. and elsewhere cause disadvantages for white people.Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:25, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I agree this is getting troublesome. This is the third time you've asked us to provide our proposed lede, we provide it, you offer no further input, and say we're getting close to a resolution. If you aren't going to participate, please just close this so we can take it to an RFC. Scoundr3l (talk) 20:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Casualties of_the_Iraq_War#2006_Lancet_paper[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Darouet on 19:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

This dispute concerns how Wikipedia should present the number of Iraqi Casualties of the Iraq War. Editors at the article appear to agree that epidemiological surveys are the most robust method for determining the number of casualties that have occurred in a war zone, and these are available for the Iraq War. However, there are five major epidemiological studies of mortality resulting from the Iraq War, and these have different findings. Three studies have produced higher estimates (Lancet 2004; Lancet 2006; ORB 2008), one has produced a lower estimate (IFHS 2008), and one has produced an intermediate estimate (PLOS Medicine 2013).

Two editors, User:Snooganssnoogans and User:TheTimesAreAChanging, argue that available scientific commentary demonstrates that the Lancet 2004 and Lancet 2006 studies are contested and probably unreliable, and have placed text in the lead of the article stating that these studies "are disputed in the scientific community."

Three editors, User:Thucydides411, User:Jrheller1 and myself User:Darouet argue that available scientific commentary shows that the Lancet 2004, Lancet 2006 and PLOS 2013 studies are instead the most reliable, and that the lead text is misleading.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

There are an abundance of sources and a long history of talk page discussion all of which have not resolved this dispute. Those discussions have included this recent one [6], and other discussions on the talk page and in the archives.

How do you think we can help?

I have had good experiences with dispute resolution in the past, where level-headed and experienced volunteers have required all participants to base their arguments in available sources and to permit both compromise and progress. There is good evidence that editors in this dispute are intelligent, interested in the subject, and can therefore contribute to a strong article that adheres to sources.

Summary of dispute by Snooganssnoogans[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The section on the Lancet study is an extremely comprehensive summary of the academic debate surrounding the study. The section is lengthy because the study is extremely notable and controversial in the field/topic of war death estimates. The section contains both criticism and praise for the study. Unlike Thucydides11, who has repeatedly sought to remove every single study criticizing the Lancet study, I have fully welcomed all studies that hold a favorable view of the Lancet study and would never dream of removing relevant peer-reviewed research under any circumstance. The simple fact is that academics dispute the Lancet study: many recognized experts say it's deeply flawed whereas other recognized experts praise it. Even the lead author of the Lancet study, Gilbert Burnham, later published an article which revised the old estimate, producing a far lower estimate of war deaths.[7] I cannot emphasize just how bizarre it is to describe criticism of the Lancet study as fringe when not even the lead author of the Lancet study stands by the Lancet study anymore.

There are several claims made by Thucydides11 below that are false or misplaced. First, the claim that the section solely cites one scholar who disputes the Lancet study is false; by my count, there are at least 28 recognized experts cited in the section as critiquing the Lancet study, most of whom are published in peer-reviewed academic outlets. This includes giants in the field of quantitative social science and conflict research, such as Andrew Gelman, Lars-Erik Cederman and Nils Petter Gleditsch. Second, the claim that citation counts reflect WP:DUE is misplaced, given that damning critiques of popular studies rarely get anywhere close to the same citations as the popular studies. For example, Ashworth et al.[8] points out rudimentary methodology errors in Pape's 'Strategic Logic of Terrorism', yet Pape's article has been cited 20x more.[9] Broockman and Kalla's[10] exposure of LaCour's fraudulent study ended LaCour's career, yet LaCour's study has been cited 2x more (despite the immediate debunking).[11] What matters is whether content is by recognized experts or published in peer-reviewed academic outlets, not whether it's been cited a bunch. Furthermore, the 2008 critique of the Lancet study was awarded "article of the year" by the Journal of Peace Research, clearly demonstrating that this is not some minor insignificant quibble that somehow got past peer-review. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Thucydides411[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The article should reflect the scientific consensus, with minority views receiving less weight. One tool for establishing what the scientific community thinks of the various studies is to look at citation counts. Snooganssnoogans and TheTimesAreAChanging have objected to this method, but citation counts are an important measure of how other scientists view a work. The 2006 Lancet study, by Burnham et al., has been cited over 700 times ([12]). Snooganssnoogans has objected that famous junk studies (such as the notorious MMR vaccine-autism study) can also rack up large numbers of citations. In order to make sure that Burnham et al. is not simply "notorious," Darouet went through the most highly cited papers that cite Burnham et al. If Burnham et al. is junk, then those papers should say so. Instead, the three most highly cited paper that cite Burnham et al. do not criticize it (Wang et al. (2016), Adhikari et al. (2010), Kassebaum et al. (2015)). A relatively recent survey article in Annual Reviews (a well respected, high-impact journal), Levy & Sidel (2016), directly states that "these studies [Burnham et al. and Roberts et al.] have been widely viewed among peers as the most rigorous investigations of Iraq War–related mortality among Iraqi civilians". That establishes the dominant scientific view on the subject.

So what does our article say? The lede first lists a range of casualty estimates, and then refers to "Other estimates, which are disputed in the scientific community, such as the 2006 Lancet study". Yet the 2006 Lancet study is referred to by the Annual Reviews survey as "the most rigorous". The lede sets out a dichotomy, between "disputed" estimates and those which are, by contrast, not disputed. This dichotomy does not exist, and if anything, goes in the opposite direction - the Burnham et al. study is actually considered one of the most rigorous estimates, not one of the least. How does Snooganssnoogans justify making this dichotomy? By citing, over and over again, criticisms published by the same researcher, Michael Spagat (Snooganssnoogans disputes this, but we can go through the sources one-by-one). These criticisms routinely have low citation counts, yet they utterly dominate the section on Burnham et al. (six of the seven paragraphs), and are additionally scattered throughout other sections of the article. Michael Spagat alone is mentioned by name a stunning 29 times throughout the article. This is completely out of proportion to the reception he has received in the scientific community, as evidenced by citation counts, how highly cited papers that cite Burnham et al. view the study, and what review articles on the subject state.

If you want an idea of what I think is appropriate, take a look at this diff: a neutral lede, and a short description in the section on Burnham et al. about how review articles characterize the study.

Summary of dispute by TheTimesAreAChanging[edit]

For the record, I used to accept the 2006 Lancet survey and credit Snooganssnoogans with changing my mind on that topic. (See, e.g., "Moreover, the Lancet estimates for Iraq War deaths are probably valid"—TheTimesAreAChanging, December 1, 2016.) While the study has many critics, I now agree with Darouet and Thucydides411 that singling it out for criticism in the lede is not appropriate. However, Thucydides411 recently deleted 23,000 bytes of sourced text from Casualties of the Iraq War, including both criticism and strong support for the Lancet. As I explained on the talk page, this large-scale deletion did not seem constructive to me because it removed all consideration of the relative merits of the Lancet and IFHS studies in favor of a short general summary from two review articles, one of which is more than a decade old. I do not wish to continue edit warring with Thucydides411 and Darouet, who I respect as much as I respect Snooganssnoogans, but I contend that a significant amount of the content that Thucydides411 deleted had encyclopedic value and that his edit went well beyond "trimming Spagat," as he might put it. If you compare the two versions, you'll see that the scope of the purge is rather dramatic, with the subsection dedicated to the 2006 Lancet study being reduced from one of the largest in the article to one of the shortest, in keeping with Thucydides411's stated preference to devote roughly comparable coverage to all estimates of Iraq War casualties rather than devoting significantly more space to the Lancet in particular. As mentioned, I don't want to keep edit warring the 23,000 bytes of content back into and out of the article, but I would have preferred a more measured approach than simply deleting all criticism of the Lancet. I had previously created a paragraph detailing Tirman et al.'s defense of the relative merits of the Lancet study versus the IFHS study in an attempt to balance the article, but with SPECIFICO dropping out of the discussion and Mr. Ernie joining Darouet, Thucydides411, and Jrheller1 it appears that the numerical balance has now shifted in favor of the other side in this dispute, and it's not clear how amenable this new bloc will be to a compromise in light of Darouet's and Jrheller1's determination that all academic criticism of the Lancet is FRINGE and UNDUE respectively.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 09:41, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Jrheller1[edit]

I agree with Thucydides411's assessment. I attempted to edit the article in July 2018 to remove some of the excessive Spagat references, but they were immediately edit-warred back by Snooganssnoogans. Since then, Snoogans has continued to add still more Spagat material.

Spagat and his co-workers have enough publications and mentions by mainstream media that there could be a separate article about their work. But their work should only be mentioned in passing in "Casualties of the Iraq War" so that it does not distract the reader from the viewpoint of the majority of experts that must be presented by "Casualties of the Iraq War". Jrheller1 (talk) 05:28, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Mr Ernie[edit]

I will not be able to participate in this DR, due to RL circumstances the next 2 weeks. Mr Ernie (talk) 16:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Casualties of_the_Iraq_War#2006_Lancet_paper discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

The necessary preconditions have been met, because there has been discussion at the talk page, and notice has been given.

Is this a dispute where the parties are seeking assistance in reaching a compromise, or is the dispute an A-B (this or that) question? If it is the latter. a Request for Comments is recommended. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:41, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

We're seeking assistance in reaching a compromise. There are some very basic issues (e.g., "What is the dominant scientific view on the 2006 Lancet study?") that we disagree on at the moment. Going through these questions in a structured manner would help. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: thanks for your question: I don't think this will be resolved through a simple this-or-that RfC. The question of how to accord due weight to comments critical of the dominant Lancet epidemiological surveys, and how to describe those surveys themselves, involves many aspects of this article. For this reason dispute resolution would be preferred.
Mr Ernie would you like to be included in this process or would you rather recuse yourself? -Darouet (talk) 16:48, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: thank you for initiating the discussion. I'll ping other editors shortly and will plan to make my statement below within 36 hours. -Darouet (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2019 (UTC) Hey @Snooganssnoogans, Thucydides411, TheTimesAreAChanging, and Jrheller1: I have made my opening statement below. -Darouet (talk) 22:38, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

First statement by interim moderator[edit]

I will try to get some progress made on this. Please read the rules and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. I don't know anything about this dispute other than that there is a war and wars have casualties. I understand that there are five studies. Is there a question about how much weight to give to each study? Can the conclusions of each study simply be stated without trying to rank them? Will each editor please provide a one-paragraph statement of the issues, within 48 hours? Do not comment on each other's statements. Address your comments to me and so to the community.

Robert McClenon (talk) 01:01, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

Thank you Robert McClenon for initiating this process. I believe the issue is not how much weight to accord the different studies, but rather how much weight is being accorded to the minority position — and above all to Michael Spagat's work — that the Lancet studies are unreliable. Instead, the two Lancet papers and the PLOS paper are widely considered the most rigorous studies of Iraqi casualties arising from the Iraq War. This consideration can be seen in their extraordinarily high citation counts, their positive and authoritative treatment in those citations, and in reviews by other authors. This 2016 Levy and Sidel Annual Reviews text summarizes the Lancet studies: "...widely viewed among peers as the most rigorous investigations of Iraq War–related mortality among Iraqi civilians; we agree with this assessment and believe that the [PLOS] study is also scientifically rigorous... [Iraqi civilian deaths] in fact, may have been underestimated by these scientifically conservative studies." I believe that we should note these studies are more rigorous. I do think that your suggestion — omitting judgement in the lead — could be one that brings compromise. -Darouet (talk) 22:37, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't necessarily think that any particular study should be given more space in the article than another. I also don't think it's necessary to rank the studies (except for the body counts, which the scientific literature notes undercount casualties). One major problem, right now, is that the lede does effectively rank the studies, by dividing them into two categories: one category is used to come up with a range of casualty estimates, while the other category is called "disputed." However, the sources that the lede terms "disputed" (the Lancet studies) are precisely the studies that the scientific literature indicates are the most rigorous. The Lancet papers are the studies with the largest numbers of citations, and which are explicitly stated to be the most rigorous in review articles, yet in the lede and in the subsections on the Lancet studies, they're singled out for criticism. This is not reflective of how the scientific community views the Lancet studies. -Thucydides411 (talk) 02:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

This is actually very simple: a large number of peer-reviewed studies and expert assessments dispute the 2006 Lancet study. Even the lead author of the 2006 Lancet study authored a separate study which considerably downgraded the casualty estimates. As a result, it is accurate to describe the Lancet study as disputed (because that is what the academic literature shows). On Wikipedia, we reflect that there is a dispute between reliable sources when there is one per WP:NPOV. Darouet and Thucydides411 repeat two falsehoods (which have been corrected multiple times, incl. here): (1) that all the critiques of the Lancet study are essentially by one academic (I count at least 28 recognized experts) and (2) that references in the academic literature to the Lancet study have been overwhelmingly positive (at this point, Darouet and Thucydides411 have only managed to find two such studies - when there are dozens of studies / expert assessments cited in the Wikipedia article that harshly critique the Lancet study). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:36, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator[edit]

I will repeat my previous suggestion that perhaps this can be resolved by a compromise wording that completely or almost completely avoids commentary on the merits of the various studies but simply summarizes the studies. Is this general approach satisfactory to the editors? If so, does each editor have a suggestion for how to do this?

If any editor sees another or a different issue or has a different approach, please state it concisely. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:50, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors[edit]

How is it a compromise to remove description of the state of the academic literature on the subject? That's the crux of the disagreement! Many studies and academic assessments sharply criticize the Lancet study, and the lead author of the Lancet study has published a separate study with a downgraded casualty estimate (i.e. not even the lead author of the study stands by it!). There is no commentary on the "merits of the various studies". The text simply notes that the Lancet study's findings have been "disputed" (which is indisputably correct and reflective of the academic literature on the subject). If there is a disagreement between reliable sources, Wikipedia policy instructs us to reflect that disagreement (i.e. stating that the veracity of the study is "disputed"). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, the approach that you give would be appropriate for the lede. The different survey-based estimates of mortality should be put on an equal footing in the lede. This is what I attempted to do in an earlier version of the article, which had this paragraph in the lede:

Estimates of Iraq War casualties range from 151,000 violent deaths as of June 2006 (per the Iraq Family Health Survey) to over a million (per the 2007 Opinion Research Business (ORB) survey). Other survey-based studies covering different time-spans find 461,000 total deaths (over 60% of them violent) as of June 2011 (per PLOS Medicine 2013), and 655,000 total deaths (over 90% of them violent) as of June 2006 (per the 2006 Lancet study). Body counts — which underestimate mortality — counted at least 110,600 violent deaths as of April 2009 (Associated Press). The Iraq Body Count project documents 183,249 – 205,785 violent civilian deaths through Feb. 2019.

The question of what to do in the body of the article is a separate one, as part of the dispute centers around how much weight to give criticism of the Lancet studies by Michael Spagat, and whether his criticisms are representative of how the wider scientific community views the Lancet studies (I think it's clear that they aren't, and I'd be happy to talk about the sources that back up that assessment). Maybe we can talk about that once we've decided how to present the different estimates in the lede. -Thucydides411 (talk) 03:51, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator[edit]

It is clear that what we are trying to do is to find a neutral way of stating what the various opinions and studies are, which includes that there have been other studies critical of the Lancet study. Can each editor please propose their wording that assesses the various studies neutrally? We can then try to pull them together. Each editor should submit their own wording, within 48 hours. Use as much length as you think is necessary, remembering that it should be read by a reader who is new to the subject. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statements by editors[edit]

. .

Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect[edit]

Pictogram voting wait blue.svg – Discussion in progress.
Filed by Bhaskarbhagawati on 11:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have discussed the issue extensively with them at:

How do you think we can help?

The issue started back in 2012, when original old article Kamrupi was divided into Kamrupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors including Aeusoes, "citing lack of sources". Their chief argument was modern languages/dialects cannot have history. Since then i have added numerous sources but they dismisses and persistently deletes them, even though wp:rsn said they are reliable to use on the subject. I need wp:drn advice on the dispute.

Summary of dispute by Chaipau[edit]

The dispute is not about whether Kamrupi dialect is a "modern speech which lacks history", but whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are synonymous and equivalent.

That they are different was first pointed out by Kwamikagami around June/July 2012 and he tried to split the article in two 501823544. There was a brief tussle between Bhaskarbhagawati and Kwamikagami over moves, with Bhaskarbhagawati trying to move it to Kamrupi Language, which was eventually deleted. I agreed with Kwamikagami, and backed it up with two references (Sharma 1978 and Goswami 1970). Both these works are seminal and comprehensive enough and they name the two articles as they stand today. Bhaskarbhagawati at first tried to move the article, and then attempted a merge that failed. And since then his attempt has been to either insert "Kamrupi language" through citations in the lede or templates above it; or dig up references whose wordings seemingly implied that the modern dialect and the pre-1250 language are the same. Bhaskarbhagawati continues his attempt to merge the two, as he admitted here 890529414.

The phrasing "modern speech which lacks history" is very recent, just a few days old. Even if this was the issue, then all the modern dialects in the dialectal continuum included in the Kamatapuri lects and the Assamese language too deserve their share of history.

Chaipau (talk) 01:43, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Aeusoes1[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I was brought to the issue in 2012 by a request for a third opinion regarding whether Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit are referentially equivalent. I teased out the mutual claims that Bhaskarbhagawati and Chaipau made, and realized that the former editor had relied on cherry picked, misunderstood, or unauthoritative quotes to claim that the two were the same. Reliable sourcing instead indicates that the 12th century Prakrit was likely a precursor language to what amounts to a modern-day dialect continuum. As is typical for dialect continua, a few language divisions have been made that are linguistically arbitrary, but still recognized as valid for sociohistorical reasons. In the same way that we don't consider Latin and Italian to be the same language, we wouldn't consider the Kamrupi dialect and Kamarupi Prakrit to be the same, even though they are clearly related, because of the political, cultural, and linguistic changes that have happened since the 12th century.

I explained this to Bhaskarbhagawati, but he disagrees with this assessment. He has so far not provided any convincing evidence that we should change the presentation in the article to reflect his belief that the two are referentially equivalent. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:22, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Kamrupi Prakrit, Talk:Kamrupi dialect discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

To support the statement that Kamrupi language do have history, i have provided references with full quotes from eminent local linguist, which are at [13] and [14].भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:36, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Sources by me (Bhaskarbhagawati)[edit]

Keep discussion concise until moderated discussion begins. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p.4 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Sukumar Sen, Ramesh Chandra Nigam (1975), Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1, p.33 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Kaliram Medhi (1936). Assamese Grammar and Origin of the Assamese Language. Sri Gouranga Press. p. 66. The language of the pre-Vaisnava and Vaisnava was the dialect of Western Assam while the language of the modern literature is that of Eastern Assam. This latter has been accepted by the common consent as the literary language of the country. Political power thus determined the centre of literary activity and also of the form of literary language.
  • Golockchandra Goswami (1982). Structure of Assamese. Department of Publication, Gauhati University. p. 11. The Eastern and Central dialects may be regarded as uniform to a certain extent in their respective areas, while Western Asamiya is heterogeneous in character, with large regional variations in the east, west, north and south. There must have been in early times as well, diverse dialects and dialect groups as at present. But then, there seems to be only one dominant literary language prevailing over the whole area; and that was Western Asamiya, the sole medium of all ancient Asamiya literature including the Buranjis written in the Ahom courts. This was because the centre of all literary activities in early times was in western Assam; and the writers were patronized by the kings and local potentates of that region. In the later period, however, even though the centre of literary activities moved to eastern Assam in the Ahom period, the writers continued to accept and use the existing model of the literary style of that time.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 18:56, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Volunteer Note - There has been extensive discussion, but not in the last three days. The editors should resume discussion on an article talk page. If discussion continues to be inconclusive, it can be resumed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:26, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that's not going to work, Robert. There hasn't been discussion in the last three days because we've been discussing at ANI, where I had brought up the dispute because Chaipau and I believe that the real problem is disruptive practices on Bhaskarbhagawati's part. We have been tasked with using DRN as a gesture of good faith. Bhaskarbhagawati specifically has been explicitly instructed not to discuss the matter in the talk pages[15][16] until we go through the DRN process. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 21:42, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: I agree with user:aeusoes1, for the exacting requirements set on us at ANI. Also, over the years, since 2012, we have been stuck with the central question because of the different incarnations it takes (the latest is the "lack of history" phrasing). DRN should probably avoid falling into this trap of never ending cycles of discussions. Chaipau (talk) 12:21, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Robert McClenon and others, consider opening this thread, there are editing restrictions on article and talk, until issue is resolved here.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:33, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

First statement by moderator[edit]

Since this case is being referred to this noticeboard from WP:ANI, it is particularly important that the editors follow the rules, because otherwise this case will go back to WP:ANI, possibly with my recommendations for a block or a lock. Please follow the rules at my statement of the rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article. I am not familiar with the details, but I understand that the issue has to do with how old the language is; I expect the editors to be able to inform me of all of the details, just as the article should inform readers of everything that is written by reliable sources. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Address your answers to my questions. Every editor is expected to reply to my questions within 48 hours.

Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they believe the issues are, and what the article should say? Be concise, because the article should be concise.

Robert McClenon (talk) 22:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

Thank you Robert McClenon, the precise dispute is whether Kamrupi dialect/Kamrupi Prakrit/Kamrupi language/Western Assamese/Western Asamiya/Western Assam dialect/Undivided Kamrup district speech is a modern speech which lacks history or a old language with literature. Until 2012, original article was saying later, which was subsequently divided into Kamrupi dialect and Kamrupi Prakrit by Chaipau and other uninvolved editors citing lack of sources. Since then, relevant sources from eminent local linguists with full quotes are added to support its original position.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 07:39, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Kamrupi dialect currently states that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese, citing Goswami's (1970) A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. I think this is correct. Kamarupi Prakrit, Assamese language#History, and KRNB lects identify the time that Assamese (which includes dialects like Kamrupi) began differentiating itself from its ancestral language and surrounding varieties as around 1250. We thus already reflect that Kamrupi has a history by indicating the mother language that Kamrupi comes from, and we also already identify the body of literature that reflects this history. What we don't (and shouldn't) do is refer to Kamarupi Prakrit as merely an earlier form of Kamrupi, since there are a number of varieties also descended from Kamarupi Prakrit. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 02:40, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Second Statement by Moderator[edit]

I am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. Does anyone claim that the older language and the modern language are the same, or is there agreement that there has been linguistic evolution? If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours.

Second Statements by Editors[edit]

To be precise, Kamrupi dialect is a modern dialect of the Assamese language. It is established that Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved. It has evolved, after 1250, on the one hand into a group of lects (called Kamatapuri lects) that cluster together and on the other hand into Assamese language, which is also a cluster of lects or dialects. Thus, Kamarupi Prakrit → KRNB (Kamatapuri, Rangpuri, etc lects) + Assamese (Kamrupi, Goalparia, etc. dialects). Chaipau (talk) 01:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Too long, didn't readRobert McClenon (talk) 08:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

No author has claimed that the Kamrupi dialect has not evolved. One of the references cited by Bhagawati above is Goswami 1970. Here are examples of the evolution specific to Kamrupi dialect:

  • Final vowels are dropped: OIA (-a) > MIA (-a) > Kamrupi (-zero) (Other such examples are given in Goswami, p51-55)
  • In Kamrupi the initial stress results in loss of vowels in the interior. This is one of the major difference between Kamrupi and eastern Assamese as well as with MIA. For example badli (Kamrupi), vatuli (Sanskrit), baduli (standard Assamese) (Goswami p67). A celebrated examples is pumpkin gourd: kumra (Kamrupi), kusmandaka (Sanskrit), Kumhandaa (Prakrit), komora (Standard Assamese) (Goswami p66). Note that the "d" in Sanskrit and Prakrit are transcribed with the retroflex flap.
  • The dative -lai which are seen in the Caryas (meru shikhara lai, Carya 47) (Goswami 1970, p230) is not found in Kamrupi but found in Standard Assamese.

Thus, Goswami himself has recorded that Kamrupi dialect has evolved further away from Kamarupi Prakrit than some other dialects of Assamese language have in some sense.

Chaipau (talk) 02:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

There are some issues with above editors statements, which i like to clear:
Aeusoes wrote: Kamrupi dialect currently states that Kamrupi is a dialect of Assamese, citing Goswami's (1970) A study on Kāmrūpī: a dialect of Assamese. I think this is correct. As both the editor is quoting Goswami (1970) as primary source, rightly so as he wrote extensively and exclusively on the subject (some of his relevant works), the full quote of him is Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p. 4.
Kamarupi Prakrit, Assamese language#History, and KRNB lects identify the time that Assamese (which includes dialects like Kamrupi) began differentiating itself from its ancestral language and surrounding varieties as around 1250. The current articles stated above has Chaipau as original contributor, the spelling "Kamarupi Prakrit" was used for first time in Wikipedia by Chaipau in 2012, based on few lines from non-linguistic work (Sharma, Mukunda Madhava (1978), Inscriptions of Ancient Assam. Guwahati, Assam:Gauhati University, p.xxv), which says modern Assamese language is derived not directly from Magadhi Prakrit but from Kamrupi Prakrit i.e. Western Assam dialect (Datta, Bīrendranātha (1999), Folkloric Foragings in India's North-East, Anundoram Borooah Institute of Language, Art, and Culture, p. 134.). The modern Assamese language more appropriately Standard Assamese language is mid nineteenth century phenomenon based on eastern/Sibsagar dialect of Assam, which works are available since later part of nineteenth century (Kaliram Medhi (1936), Assamese Grammar and Origin of the Assamese Language, Sri Gouranga Press, p. 66.). The so called KRNB is itself Kamrupi dialect, which reached North Bengal with shift of political entity (Toulmin, Mathew W S (2006), Reconstructing linguistic history in a dialect continuum: The Kamta, Rajbanshi, and Northern Deshi Bangla subgroup of Indo-Aryan, p.14 ). Here i have linked the two works Chaipau has quoted. The Kamrupi Prakrit is one of many names used for Kamrupi language (Madhumita Sengupta (2016) Becoming Assamese: Colonialism and New Subjectivities in Northeast India, Routledge, p. 100), there is need to ascertain the most appropriate title.
We thus already reflect that Kamrupi has a history by indicating the mother language that Kamrupi comes from, and we also already identify the body of literature that reflects this history. Here i quote Goswami (1970), p.4 again, it says Kamrupi language itself is first Indo-Aryan language spoken in Assam (thus there is no question of another pre-1250 language), so the mother language of Kamrupi language is Magadhi Prakrit, which was used further west. (Radhakrishna Choudhary (1976), A Survey of Maithili Literature, Page 16).
What we don't (and shouldn't) do is refer to Kamarupi Prakrit as merely an earlier form of Kamrupi, since there are a number of varieties also descended from Kamarupi Prakrit. I have discussed above that KRNB used in North Bengal itself is Kamrupi, whereas eastern/Sibsagar dialect (on which standard Assamese language is based) descended from Western Assam dialect/Kamrupi (Bīrendranātha Datta (1999). Folkloric Foragings in India's North-East. Anundoram Borooah Institute of Language, Art, and Culture. p. 134.).
Chaipau wrote:To be precise, Kamrupi dialect is a modern dialect of the Assamese language. I like to refer to Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p. 4. as above again to address this confusion.
It is established that Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved. It has evolved, after 1250, on the one hand into a group of lects (called Kamatapuri lects) that cluster together and on the other hand into Assamese language, which is also a cluster of lects or dialects. Thus, Kamarupi Prakrit → KRNB (Kamatapuri, Rangpuri, etc lects) + Assamese (Kamrupi, Goalparia, etc. dialects). I have addressed this above.
No author has claimed that the Kamrupi dialect has not evolved. One of the references cited by Bhagawati above is Goswami 1970. Here are examples of the evolution specific to Kamrupi dialect:
Final vowels are dropped: OIA (-a) > MIA (-a) > Kamrupi (-zero) (Other such examples are given in Goswami, p51-55)
In Kamrupi the initial stress results in loss of vowels in the interior. This is one of the major difference between Kamrupi and eastern Assamese as well as with MIA. For example badli (Kamrupi), vatuli (Sanskrit), baduli (standard Assamese) (Goswami p67). A celebrated examples is pumpkin gourd: kumra (Kamrupi), kusmandaka (Sanskrit), Kumhandaa (Prakrit), komora (Standard Assamese) (Goswami p66). Note that the "d" in Sanskrit and Prakrit are transcribed with the retroflex flap.
The dative -lai which are seen in the Caryas (meru shikhara lai, Carya 47) (Goswami 1970, p230) is not found in Kamrupi but found in Standard Assamese.
Thus, Goswami himself has recorded that Kamrupi dialect has evolved further away from Kamarupi Prakrit than some other dialects of Assamese language have in some sense. For above OR, i again like to point to Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p. 4.
There are further issues which i like to address. It is claimed above that old/ancient language i.e. prior 1250 (the date seems to be based on Toulmin 2006 thesis who had hardly written about Assamese language) is unattested, in contrast there are deluge of literary activities in old Kamrupi dialect, such as eight century voluminous works like "Dakabhanita" which was composed in Barpeta of modern Kamrup region (Abhay Kant Choudhary (1971), Early Medieval Village in North-eastern India, A.D. 600-1200:Mainly a Socio-economic Study, Punthi Pustak (India), page 253). The local eminent linguists do said that modern Kamrupi dialect spoken in Kamrup/Western Assam dialect/Western Asamiya is same as the first ever Indo-Aryan language used in Assam with voluminous ancient literature, by chance it remained as dialect (Goswami, Upendranath (1970). A study on Kamrupi: a dialect of Assamese. Guwahati: Dept. of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam. p. 14).
Some of the sources are :
  • Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, Department of Historical Antiquarian Studies, Assam, p.4 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Sukumar Sen, Ramesh Chandra Nigam (1975), Grammatical sketches of Indian languages with comparative vocabulary and texts, Volume 1, p.33 Assam from ancient times, was known as Kamarupa till the end of the Koch rule (17th century) and ancient Kamarupa comprised the whole of North Bengal including Cooch-Behar, and the Rangpur and Jalpaiguri districts of Bengal. Its permanent western boundary is said to have been the river Karatoya in North Bengal according to the Kalika Purana and Yoginitantra, both devoted to geographical accounts of ancient Kamarupa. So the Aryan language spoken first in Assam was the Kamrupi language spoken in Rangpur, Cooch-Behar, Goalpara, Kamrup district and some parts of Nowgong and Darrang districts. As also put by K.L. Barua "the Kamrupi dialect was originally a variety of eastern Maithili and it was no doubt the spoken Aryan language throughout the kingdom which then included the whole of the Assam Valley and the whole of Northern Bengal with the addition of the Purnea district of Bihar”. It is in this Kamrupi language that the early Assamese literature was mainly written. Up to the seventeenth century as the centre of art, literature and culture were confined within western Assam and the poets and the writers hailed from this part, the language of this part also acquired prestige. The earliest Assamese writer is Hema Saraswati, the author of a small poem, Prahrada Caritra, who composed his verses under his patron, King Durlabhnarayana of Kamatapur who is said to have ruled in the latter part of the 13th century. Rudra Kandali translated Drone Parva under the patronage of King Tamradhvaja of Rangpur. The most considerable poet of the pre-vaisnavite period is Madhava Kandali, who belonged to the present district of Nowgong and rendered the entire Ramayana into Assamese verse under the patronage of king Mahamanikya, a Kachari King of Jayantapura. The golden age in Assamese literature opened with the reign of Naranarayana, the Koch King. He gathered round him at his court at Cooch-Behar a galaxy of learned man. Sankaradeva real founder of Assamese literature and his favourite disciple Madhavadeva worked under his patronage. The other-best known poets and writers of this vaisnavite period namely Rama Sarasvati, Ananta Kandali, Sridhar Kandali, Sarvabhauma Bhattacharyya, Dvija Kalapachandra and Bhattadeva, the founder of the Assamese prose, all hailed from the present district of Kamarupa. During Naranaryana's reign "the Koch power reached its zenith. His kingdom included practically the whole of Kamarupa of the kings of Brahmapala's dynasty with the exception of the eastern portion known as Saumara which formed the Ahom kingdom. Towards the west the kingdom appears to have extended beyond the Karatoya, for according to Abul Fasal, the author of the Akbarnamah, the western boundary of the Koch kingdom was Tirhut. On the south-west the kingdom included the Rangpur district and part of Mymensingh to the east of the river Brahmaputra which then flowed through that district," The Kamrupi language lost its prestige due to reasons mentioned below and has now become a dialect which has been termed as Kamrupi dialect as spoken in the present district of Kamrup.
  • Kaliram Medhi (1936). Assamese Grammar and Origin of the Assamese Language. Sri Gouranga Press. p. 66. The language of the pre-Vaisnava and Vaisnava was the dialect of Western Assam while the language of the modern literature is that of Eastern Assam. This latter has been accepted by the common consent as the literary language of the country. Political power thus determined the centre of literary activity and also of the form of literary language.
  • Golockchandra Goswami (1982). Structure of Assamese. Department of Publication, Gauhati University. p. 11. The Eastern and Central dialects may be regarded as uniform to a certain extent in their respective areas, while Western Asamiya is heterogeneous in character, with large regional variations in the east, west, north and south. There must have been in early times as well, diverse dialects and dialect groups as at present. But then, there seems to be only one dominant literary language prevailing over the whole area; and that was Western Asamiya, the sole medium of all ancient Asamiya literature including the Buranjis written in the Ahom courts. This was because the centre of all literary activities in early times was in western Assam; and the writers were patronized by the kings and local potentates of that region. In the later period, however, even though the centre of literary activities moved to eastern Assam in the Ahom period, the writers continued to accept and use the existing model of the literary style of that time.
Thus, i have discussed the two sources Goswami (1970) and thesis of Toulmin (2006) used by both the editors and pointed towards other relevant sources.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 07:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator[edit]

I am not sure that I understand what the issue is. It is agreed that the Kamrupi dialect is a modern form of the Assamese language. It is agreed that there was an older form of the language which was Kamrupi Prakrit, which is not attested but is known to have existed. If there is agreement that there has been linguistic evolution, is the issue that different scholars express it differently, or that they have different theories? If different scholars have different theories, they should all be stated. Please clarify within 48 hours in less than 300 words. Be clear, concise, and civil. If the issue is how to accommodate different statements that are not inconsistent, this can be worked out. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Third statements by editors[edit]

I am rephrasing the statements of dispute for better clarity. The disputes are:

The relevant sources for any academic consensus, i.e. Upendranath Goswami (1970), A Study on Kamrupi: A dialect of Assamese, an work agreed on by both the parties and other relevant sources are included in "Second Statements by Editors" for reference of moderator.

The other party has yet to produce sources which says opposite of "Kamrupi dialect is first Indo-Aryan language of Assam which is also the ancestral language of modern Assamese language", so there appears no contradiction between sources as of now.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 11:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree that this is the nature of the dispute. You can even see that reflected in Bhaskarbhagawati's most recent edit in which he changes "modern dialect of Assamese" to "modern language" and "the historical language spoken in Kamarupa" to "the old language" mischaracterizing the modern dialect as its own separate language and Kamarupi Prakrit as simply an ancestral form of said language (rather than an ancestor language to a number of varieties).
I know of no sources that put forth the claim that Kamarupi Prakrit and the Kamrupi dialect are the same language. The main source that Bhaskarbhagawati wishes to quote from, Goswami (1970), clearly indicates that they are separate in its very title. The notion of actually merging the articles also doesn't make sense, given that Kamarupi Prakrit is also the ancestor language of e.g. Assamese and Bengali and we certainly aren't going to merge all of those into one article. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Bhaskarbhagawati is trying to equate the pre-1250 unattested language kamarupi Prakrit and the modern kamrupi dialect, dialect of Assamese language. This cannot be done since Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved into different languages and dialects. Kamrupi dialect is just one of these dialects. This is the position of most standard linguists: Grierson, Chaterji, Kakati, and Masica. No author supports Bhashkarbhagawati's position. Goswami (1970) too has clearly shown that the Kamarupi Prakrit has evolved and Kamrupi dialect is a dialect of the Assamese language. Chaipau (talk) 03:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Bhaskarbhagawati wishes Wikipedia to say that the early Kamarupi Prakrit is the same language as modern Kamrupi dialect. As Chaipau points out, Kamarupi Prakrit is the minimally-attested ancestor of a number of related modern languages and dialects, including modern Kamrupi dialect. Authorities do not generally treat it as being "the same" language as modern Kamrupi dialect. Bhaskarbhagawati seems to be eager to right a great wrong, namely that "effort here by Chaipau is to cement his point that said speech" (modern Kamrupi dialect) "is mere dialect which entirely lacks history." I don't think that's an appropriate reason to urge the merger of two articles about distinct languages, certainly not to belabour the subject at such extreme length with quotations dredged from Google and (as in the collapsed section above) repeated and attributed to different authorities. (Nor, by the way, do I see any effort to belittle the literary achievements of mediaeval / modern Kamrupi dialect.) Richard Keatinge (talk) 16:52, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderators[edit]

It appears that User:Richard Keatinge was not a previous party to this discussion and is trying to help resolve this. Unless he objects, I will add his name to the list of volunteers and will let the discussion continue under his moderation. I may chime in as a participant. I thank User:Richard Keatinge for assisting. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors[edit]

Robert McClenon neutrality issue may be arise if Richard Keatinge made moderator of the current thread. He was an oppposite party in an recent dispute involving me (see:Talk:Assamese_people, Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_259#Dravidian_ethno-linguistic_group_in_ancient_Assam,_India and others), and is next in line as party, as said dispute supposed to brought in here.भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 20:25, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Robert McClenon, need to clarify that user:Richard Keatinge was the WP:3O in the discussion in its entirety. Chaipau (talk) 11:10, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator[edit]

Okay. I will continue as moderator, and have added User:Richard Keatinge as a party.

We are in agreement that Kamrumpi Prakrit is a historic predecessor of modern Assamese, of which Kamrupi dialect is a form. What are the points of difference, then? Will each editor please state concisely what they see as the points of difference? Comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors[edit]

Thanks to Robert McClenon and Bhaskarbhagawati; indeed it's much better if I don't try to moderate this discussion. As for the differences between ancient Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern Kamrupi dialect, I will leave any detailed description to the relevant articles and to the reliable sources, accurately represented by Chaipau and aeusoes1. It might indeed be helpful to have a comparison, possibly in the Kamarupi Prakrit article, between what is known of Kamarupi Prakrit and the modern dialects. But I am not equipped to provide anything of the sort. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:06, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Before i point the differences, i like to clear some previous statements of editors. Aeusoes wrote Kamrupi is ancestoral language of Bengali language and Assamese language, i like to inform that ancestral form of Bengali is Radhi, not Kamrupi. Chaipau wrote that Richard Keatinge is wp:3O in entirety, but he was wp:3O in 2017 dispute, after that he was involved as full fledge party in other articles talks and wp:rsn.
There are several point of difference, first the spelling "Kamarupi Prakrit" (first used in 2012 by Chaipau after division of common article) is based on few lines of a non-linguistic work, whereas reliable linguistic sources calls it by different names (Kamrupi language, Old Kamarupi dialect, Kamrupi Apabhramsa etc, see References 1, References 2). The second point of difference is presentation of article, other party claims Kamrupi dialect as modern form of language (their point against merger) based on sole source, but it don't say anything of such. The reliable source talks of its antiquity, and its present dialect status not due to linguistic reasons but political (loss of prestige etc, see Goswami (1970), p.4, Goswami (1970), p.14).भास्कर् Bhagawati Speak 12:41, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, user:Robert McClenon.
  • The major point of dispute was whether Kamarupi Prakrit and Kamrupi dialect are same. As you suggest above I think we have resolved this issue.
  • The minor points of dispute relate to WP:POINT, where:
    • Name spellings, Kamarupi vs Kamrupi. We are using Kamarupi for the Prakrit because that is the spelling used by the author (Sharma) who most comprehensively specified it first, and because the Prakrit is an MIA language where phonetics demand the use of the extra a. Using Kamrupi for the Prakrit would suggest a modern language. (I am striking this out since this is reacting to other editors on an issue that has been newly introduced into the discussion. 20:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC))
    • Packing the lede of the two articles with text and extended (and often repeated) citations that suggest the two articles are equivalent. Examples of these citations are in the TL;DR above.
IMHO, the minor points could be resolved on the basis of the major point of dispute.
Chaipau (talk) 18:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

2019 Euro_T20_Slam[edit]

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Talk:Fascism in_Europe[edit]

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Talk:Genesis creation_narrative#User:Oldstone_James_edits[edit]

Symbol wait old.png – New discussion.
Filed by Oldstone James on 19:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The article makes a claim, in WP:VOICE, that reading the Genesis story as history is misreading it, which is contradicted by many reliable sources (which give numerous concrete examples of literal readings) and even the article itself ("It can also be regarded as ancient history"). The editor defending the current version claims that there is no contradiction in the article, and they also claim that the sources I have provided to them do not show examples of literal reading.

Note that misreading is defined as "the act or an instance of interpreting something incorrectly", meaning the phrase "misreading the Genesis story as history" does not imply that the Genesis story is history; instead, it implies that the Genesis story wasn't intended to be read/interpreted as history.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have changed my proposal following criticism by other editors

How do you think we can help?

I think a WP:3O may resolve the issue, as only two editors, me and jps, have expressed an opinion on my most recent proposal. Otherwise, if more than one volunteer responds to this request, a new consensus can be built.

Summary of dispute by ජපස[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

This is a premature filling. Suggest withdrawing. If not, I will support a topic ban for tiresomeness. jps (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Dimadick[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Epiphyllumlover[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I strongly disagree that Oldstone James is being tendentious. In general practice on Bible related articles on Wikipedia, the content of the article summarizes either the Biblical information or the modern scholarship. Usually the less important, niche subjects summarize the Biblical information and the more important ones summarize modern scholarship. Oldstone James is looking to shift the article somewhat away from the latter and more towards the former. The several other editors won't let him do this on the grounds that if he does, it will be promoting Creationism, which is generally considered a fringe scientific position on scientific articles in Wikipedia. This is a misreading of the WP:Fringe policy due to the fact that this an article about a Bible story instead of a scientific article. However, due to the multiplicity of editors backing this proposition, the article currently reflects this misreading of WP:Fringe.

On the talk page, I suggested that Oldstone James could write a new section for the article reflecting the missing point of view. He declined, preferring to make even a more modest adjustment, stating "A simple solution to this problem would be to simply rephrase the two controversial statements that reading historically is misreading so as to avoid WP:WIKIVOICE." This is a much more minor tweaking than I suggested to solve the problem. In fact, it barely changes the position of the article at all and if I were him I would say it wouldn't be worth my time.

If Oldstone James was being tendentious he would be insisting for more broad changes rather than more minor ones. As for the criticism of his sources, this is an example of someone playing mind games. His sources are fine, and the view he is using is already dominant on many of the more minor-importance Bible topic articles without any feuding.

My opinion is that, however well-sourced the current page is, the claims it makes are very strong on one particular POV, such that using WP:WIKIVOICE is highly inappropriate. As such it prevents effective expansion of the article with other points of view.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 20:01, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by PiCo[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Theroadislong[edit]

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Genesis creation_narrative#User:Oldstone_James_edits discussion[edit]

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
User is being tendentious. One of the sources clearly says "If the reader misjudges the genre of the text in front of him , the result is a misreading." [18] page 142. Theroadislong (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Just note that I am not arguing for changing the line that you have quoted. Explaining why you believe I am being tendentious may also help.OlJa 21:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
@Theroadislong: You seem to be involved in the dispute, and I have thus added you to the list of involved editors and gave you a space to send in a summary of the dispute. --MrClog (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

As is says at the top of this page, "We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums" This is currently under discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Oldstone James. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't think the discussion you are referring to has anything to do with the dispute here. The discussion at WP:ANI is about my general conduct; the discussion here is about specific content.OlJa 21:36, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The ANI discussion is about a proposed topic ban from all creationism articles, broadly construed. Genesis creation narrative is a creationism article. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:24, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
The problem is that if ANI rules against Oldstone James and we decide in his favor, you will have two wikipedia procedures contradicting each other. To resolve this problem, I offer to make the relevant changes in the event Oldstone James is given a blanket ban and we resolve this dispute along the lines of what he is asking for.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:11, 21 April 2019 (UTC)